HR - It’s NOT just for big businesses
Join us for an insightful conversation with HR expert Amy Christophersen from Grounded HR, alongside guest host Jane from The Jane Edit. Amy shares her fresh perspective on human resources for small businesses, discussing everything from managing husband-wife teams to creating healthy workplace cultures. Learn why HR isn't just for big corporations and how proper people management can transform your business - and maybe even save your marriage!
Websites/Services:
www.groundedhr.com.au - Amy's main business website
Grounded HR social media: @groundedhr.au
HR Link - New membership service ($350/month) including:
Monthly consultations
Community access
Document library
Email scripts
Training portal
Upcoming Events:
Free webinar in May: "Winning Hearts - How to Get All Your Employees On Board"
Regular free webinars every second month
Key Topics/Services Mentioned:
HR audits
Performance management
Employment contracts
Culture and values alignment
Psychosocial safety
Small business HR support
Husband-wife business team support
Notable Quote: "As soon as you start a business, you are the HR manager."
You can also listen on your favourite podcast apps, including Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Episode Transcript
Emily: I'm Emily.
Christine: And I'm Chris.
Emily: And we are once again in the Central Coast Podcast, studio G Studios. We have a very, very special episode today because not only have we got a wonderful guest speaker, this is our first time doing a new format for our um, episodes.
Christine: Absolutely. We thought you might be a little bit, um, bored of just the two of us nattering on 'cause we could go on for days, but we're actually introducing.
Christine: Guest host segments
Emily: as well as a guest speaker, which is very exciting. So we've very delightfully thrown the wonderful Jane from the Jane edit into the deep end.
Jane: Hello, ladies,
Emily: with no preparation.
Jane: Oh, thank you. I'm excited. I've to be, I've never hosted a podcast before, so this is fun.
Emily: This will be super fun, and I expect all the fun questions for our lovely guest.
Emily: Speaker who is the wonderful Amy Christofferson from Grounded hr.
Amy: Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Emily: I'm so excited to get Amy on the podcast for so long.
Amy: Well, it's been in the works for quite some time, hasn't it?
Emily: No, I'm glad you reminded me to get my shit together actually book, uh, because it was just, uh, you know, on the peripheral, but needing to do it and it's really, and you just told us it's your first real life in person for podcast.
Amy: This is the first time I've done one in real life. All the rest have been done in. Zoom. So this is super exciting to have the headphones on and really nice.
Emily: It's um, you get used to the headphones and hearing yourself and then you go somewhere else that doesn't have it and you're like, why can't I hear my voice in my ears?
Amy: That's right.
Emily: It's a weird adjustment.
Christine: It's a great, it's a great thing to be, you get the vibe of each other. Mm-hmm. And I think the conversations really are top notch. There is a place for virtual, obviously it has to happen. Um, but yet, love this in person.
Amy: So good to see your faces. Squeezes. Yes.
Christine: So, um, so fun.
Christine: Amy, tell us a bit about your state and grounded hr.
Amy: Yeah, so super exciting. So just under 12 months ago, I totally rebranded and moved across to Grounded hr. Prior to that, I was working under my own name. Um, but Grounded HR is really the essence of who I am and how I do hr. I am very much in the space of leading by.
Amy: Being people focused and looking at the human as an individual. So, uh, to me it's very, very important that whether I'm dealing with a business owner or an employee, that they, uh, I'm looking at them as an individual and how to make them the best they can be. So I offer. Um, multiple different services retainers.
Amy: Um, I also got my new service, which is the HR link.
Emily: Love it.
Amy: And it is specifically built for small business because there was a huge gap in the market there. So, uh, and yeah, I just love what I do. I just love working with business owners who are so passionate about what they do, but they don't know how to do the HR stuff.
Christine: No,
Emily: and my biggest thing, and I was so excited to talk to you about it today too, is because it, a lot of people just associate HR with big corporates and big employee based people, but it's not just about that. Like it's not just people management. There's so many other elements to HR that people don't understand.
Amy: A hundred percent do. As soon as you start a business, you are the HR manager, right? Yeah. Because whether you are bringing on subcontractors, employees, casual permanence. Any of those things, the responsibility falls on you. Yeah, and the thing that I've found is that these business owners don't understand the responsibility they're taking on.
Amy: No. When they sign up for an A BN, they don't realize that There's so much responsibility that comes with that. And every single person is an individual, so, exactly. So if you don't have do the background work, you're never gonna be able to know how, how to manage people, what happens when they underperform, what happens when they do something wrong?
Amy: You know? Um, how can I make them work for my business and towards my goals as well as working towards their own? Yeah. So there's so many moving parts in the HRS space.
Emily: Exactly. Right. But it's the same concept, right? Like anyone that starts a business. Like, you know, for us that do marketing or websites and stuff, like you don't have a hairdresser start a business and then they don't seem to realize that they also have to be their marketing department.
Emily: It's the same concept. It's just a different thing. And having, you know, for, for Chris and I who are a business who have. To this point in time, always had contractors and subcontractors working for us. It's a big important piece.
Amy: Absolutely.
Emily: HR is part of that. We've both had, I mean all, all of us in this room have had shitty corporate experiences and know the important
Amy: and that is why we don't work there
Emily: Exactly.
Emily: And have our own businesses. Um, but we know, like we've all been through really horrible scenarios where HR has either helped or not helped the situation
Amy: a hundred percent. And so often I get employees who I'm. Helping to performance manage, or I'm helping to develop them or train them, and all of those kind of things.
Amy: And they're like, oh, you're just, you're just for the business part. Yeah, they're just for the business. And I'm like, hell no. Yeah, yeah. I'm not here just for the business. I'm here to make everybody work together better.
Emily: And that's why I love what you do because you are that external party. You're not built into a company.
Emily: So, and I think you know exactly that. A lot of my big last corporate job that I have spoken about before was, you know, HR was, again, it's, it's for the business. They protect the business and they, and traditionally have in my own experiences. But I love what you do because you are. You are literally freestanding on the side.
Emily: You have allegiances to no one.
Amy: Absolutely.
Emily: But whoever you know, you're there to service and it is the people behind it. And that's why I think there's so much power in what you do.
Amy: Oh, absolutely. And I think the important part is being invited into the conversation. Yeah. Um, so I find so many of my clients who.
Amy: Are able to make really good steps forward in the HR space. It's because they've invited me to the conversation. Yeah. Whether that be their team meetings, whether that be training days, you know, giving me a part within that. It allows me to like weld myself in there. Like I, I can mix with the people. They get to know who I am and then they realize that I am actually, I'm a human too.
Amy: Yeah. And I'm there to find out who they are and why they do what they do. Um, sometimes it's those conversations that really light people up and they go. Oh my, I, I actually dunno whether I love my job anymore. Yeah. And it's a simple conversation like that about asking a person, 'cause so many of us as business owners, right, we work on ourselves, right?
Amy: Yeah. We do heaps of, um, self-development and those kind of things and learning, but I feel like employees don't always do that. No. They don't look inside themselves and say, am I, am I really passionate about what I'm doing right now? And I think I get the, you know, gift of having that conversation with employees along the way.
Amy: To make them realize where they're going.
Emily: I wish more businesses did that. 'cause like my husband's in this stage right now, he's been in the same company. 12 years. And you know, he never thought he'd, he, he thought he'd be a mechanic on the tools forever. Like he thought he hit his glass ceiling and then he moved into corporate.
Emily: And that was a huge thing for him. And I think he thought, okay, well this is it. You know, this is as far as I'm gonna get. And now he's at this point where he's tried. To go for promotions and been told stupid shit like, oh, we haven't got enough retail experience, you have not got enough management experience, but I'm not gonna give you any of that experience.
Emily: And it's so now he's getting really,
Jane: it's a catch 22.
Emily: It is such a catch 22. And I laughed 'cause again, he turned 40 and he started to get real cranky old man guy going on as it happens. But he. His, his current boss said to him the other day, if you weren't just like cranky all the time, like they might, and he came over and he was like, can you believe this is what he said?
Emily: Oh yes, I can. I just pissed my eye, laugh so hard. I was like, oh, cranky. What do, I've heard that before. And I, and it's, he is in this stage where. He went through his boss's job, he got told then no retail experience and he can't have retail experience without giving up his wage and all of this stuff got, and he can't do that.
Emily: And you know, so he is cranky because he has also been there a long time and they're of a typical company where they're like, let's restructure two years later, let's restructure back to what we just had kind of thing. And he is been through so much of it that he is now, like at the point where he is like.
Emily: We've fucking done this before. Like, you're not listening or, and I've, he used to be such a yes man, and it's been really interesting seeing him get to that point. And I've said to him a few times, do you even like it anymore? Like realistically. And he almost gets angry at me for like, implying that he might not.
Emily: And it's like, but have you thought about it?
Christine: That's exactly right.
Amy: Men are the worst, right? They're so bad. They're so bad. My husband's the same. He's like, it's just so comfy working for a friend. And I'm like, yeah, but. Does it give us what we need as a family and, and you know, all of those kind of things.
Amy: He loves what he does when it's busy. Yeah. But when it gets quiet, he gets grumpy too. Yep. And I'm like, you really need to understand that. You know, you have the responsibility. You are driving the car to where you wanna be. Yeah, yeah. And you can't expect your employer to do that for you. Yeah. And that's why performance appraisals as much as everybody hates them,
Christine: they're so important.
Amy: Why they're so important. Because that's where you're gonna find out whether we're on the same train or not. Yeah. Yeah. Are we heading in the same direction, uh, is. Can we offer you what you need to go where you want to go? All of those conversations happen by having those regular conversations and
Emily: wish people were better trained on how to do them though, because I've had some horrific ones where they have deliberately not mentioned a single problem until that point in time, which is not allowed for one.
Emily: Yeah, no, absolutely. You can't just pull that shit outta your ass, but like I had one so horrific. When I was leaving my last big, big corporate job that like, I ended up having a fight with him and I was pregnant and he knew I was pregnant and I came prepared 'cause I knew he was gonna attack me for things that were so not right.
Amy: Yeah.
Emily: So I had, I came prepared with like backing stuff from my suppliers I worked with and all this stuff. And we basically, he was like, well, you are wrong. And that was like, and I was in hysterics by this point and he took all my evidence that I had printed out and threw at the bin in front of me.
Amy: Oh
Amy: my goodness.
Emily: And I left and was like, fuck this shit. That is horrible. And I was sitting outside hysterical. I'd also asked my department manager to come at the time and she turned, she declined it five minutes before the the thing. So I was like, you, this is fucked.
Jane: Oh, that's a lot of toxicity. Yeah. Yeah. This is horror.
Emily: And I walked out and I was sitting out the front of the office hysterical. Called hr. They're like, yeah, go home. I'm like, you fucking think, of course I'm going home. Like, absolutely. Like, I'm not staying in this. And I was just like, and though I ended up getting the haha of them, 'cause they made me redundant while I was on maternity leave.
Emily: So I got full mat leave and then took a redundancy when that finished.
Amy: Thank you very much.
Emily: And it was right when COVID hit, so I had a full years paid during COVID, so, and I was gonna leave for free. Yeah. And they paid me up instead. So the last laugh,
Amy: that's right. I've had clients who have like swept conversations under the rug.
Amy: I hate that. And or they didn't think. That the employee was raising it, raising an issue. By you not actioning it, you are showing that they're not valuable. Absolutely. Or their word is not valuable and, and then I get brought in at a later stage and I'm like, guys, this has been going on for two years. How have you not done something about it?
Christine: Yeah.
Amy: And then it becomes a three month process. Yeah. To have all those conversations. You've got other people who didn't even know that there was an issue. Yeah. And. It all just snowballs. All because you couldn't have
Emily: couldn communicate
Amy: that difficult conversation and have that conversation way back when it first was raised.
Emily: And it's, it's not even just training people on business, it's training people on how to be humans, like how to be a proper functional human.
Amy: Yeah, a hundred percent. And there's a huge change, um, around the, like how long people stay in their jobs. Two years is kind of the average now. Yeah. So they change over their jobs that quickly.
Amy: You know, my dad, he was in his job for 40 years. I know. I was, we had a conversation about this the other day and one of something else actually.
Emily: And it's like, I, I'm actually was the last podcast. I am never gonna hit 10 years anywhere That isn't my own stuff. Yep. Like it's just, but it's, the landscape's not designed for it anymore.
Amy: No, that's right. And quite often they've gotta go chasing it elsewhere. Like the business they're in might not give them what they want. And they're the people. The people that are changing jobs every two years, they're the ones who actually know what they wanna do. Yes. Because they're chasing it. Right.
Amy: They're finding the opportunities and they're going where they need to go.
Emily: Yeah. Recruiters see 'em as in stable.
Amy: Yeah.
Christine: When, um, when we were having the year 12 talk, um, at school last year, um, the one thing that they, um, you know, was announced was that your child will work in. Nine industries on average in their lifetime.
Christine: It's crazy, isn't it? Um, and it is crazy because you're gonna have some that obviously, you know, Hey, I am gonna be a doctor, it's gonna take me 10 something years to be a specialist from that. I'm gonna sit in that career forever. And then you're gonna have others that are 15 industries, or like you're saying, yeah, every two years.
Amy: Yep.
Christine: Moving on to the next, right.
Amy: Since I changed, I trained 20 years ago now. Um, in hr that's increased. So we were told as HR professionals that we would probably have three separate careers in our lifetime. I've kind of had that in that I went HR and then, you know, decided to be an early childhood teacher.
Amy: And then I've come back. But I'm doing it my own way. Yes. Uh, in business. So. You know, for, for our kids, I, you know, I've got a almost 15-year-old who's getting ready to go and get his first casual job. Yep. It's so hard to have those conversations with them because. They will change. Yeah. A million times.
Emily: I was talking about this too.
Emily: Um, one of my husband's friends whose kids are the same age, his oldest is 17 and his younger one is about 1615. And I was saying like to to both of them too, you know, his friend has works at same company as my husband. He's been there over 20 something years. And I've said to him like, would you leave?
Emily: Like, would you go somewhere else? And he was like. No. Or he is like, oh, if I did it would need to be in a completely different industry. Yeah. Like, but how would you get into a different industry? Your skillset and your job is, is vehicle specific? It's mechanical specific.
Christine: That's right.
Emily: So like, you know, I, I've had the conversation with my husband again too.
Emily: He always goes, well you do you want our cars? 'cause we get cars. And I'm like, well I feel like if you've moved jobs, it'd be to another car company. Which we have cars. We have cars. Funnily enough, like, you know,
Jane: it's all about transferable skills, right?
Emily: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's what I was saying to him, like, you know, do you think it's worth, I'm like, would you, like, if you look back at your life.
Emily: Would you tell your younger self something different now? Mm-hmm. In order to prepare for the ability to move. And I was like, look at, you know, what I've done and with in the way I've transitioned in my life and my skill sets, marketing and digital marketing, I can market anything, but I don't need to be industry specific.
Emily: So I've jumped a lot of industries. But I like the core of what I do is the same. It's just the, it's the knowledge of the, like the, the subject knowledge is what I need to learn.
Amy: Absolutely. I'm the same when I go into, you know, I've got clients in engineering, I've got an art studio that I works with NDIS participants.
Amy: Oh, that's cool. I do art therapy and all that kind of stuff. I've got, um, other engineering companies. I've got tilers, I've got so many different industries that I've worked with and. But it's all the same. Yeah.
Emily: Like it's the crux of it's the same.
Amy: It's the crux of it the same. Yeah. It's like see everyone as a human and start at that point.
Amy: Yeah.
Emily: Don't be a dickhead.
Amy: Yeah. Pretty much. Pretty much. Don't be a dickhead and treat people the way you wanna be treated.
Jane: Oh my goodness. Yes. Right. Absolutely.
Amy: Yeah.
Emily: Have you, what have you experienced Jane in your journey?
Jane: My goodness,
Emily: would that you'd think would, I think there's a lot of stuff that we do that we don't actually associate as hr, um, behaviors.
Emily: And it's okay. And I think there's, um, like have you ever, I mean, you don't have, do you have anyone that works? Do you have any contractors or subies?
Jane: So, um, not at the moment, no. So I just work on my own. I have in the past, over the last five years, had subcontractors. Mm-hmm. And I was really interested in what you said right at the beginning on you, um, are involved in how to get the best out of those subcontractors as opposed to maybe I've used 12 and I've probably just not employed them again.
Jane: Yeah. So it was really interesting to just go, okay, well that's a bit of sunken cost, right? Yeah. I've already trained them on my systems what to do. I really wasn't happy with the outcome.
Emily: It's a really big thing in our industry too.
Jane: Absolutely. So what could I do, you know? Um. Yeah, to get them up to either the standard or the interest, or to be motivated,
Amy: really think that it needs to start with what's your value proposition.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Right. So what value do you bring to your employees, to your subcontractors? What is it that's really specific about your skills and training that you can pass on to someone else?
Emily: I like that. That's kind of like, you know, we look at them as like. Why are you good enough to work with me? But it's actually, why are we good enough to have you work for us?
Amy: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. So every business should be, they need to realize when they're doing their social media, when they're doing their marketing, you're talking to potential employees, not. Not just your clients.
Christine: Potential clients. Potential clients.
Amy: Right. Um, so I think everyone needs to start there.
Amy: Then we need to move into a space of what can we, what can we do together? What, you know, what's the outcome that I really want and do, am I here to bring on someone who's short term mm-hmm. And, you know, is gonna make a quick impact in my business? Or am I looking for someone to work with me long term?
Amy: Mm-hmm. For me. I, there's only one of me in my business. I was the only person who was HR qualified. I had a couple of subcontractors who worked in different, different spaces for. Part some of my clients, but I searched for nearly a year.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Amy: To find another HR person who worked in my way, who thought the same as I did.
Amy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Who were flexible enough that I could bring them in and take them out and, um, you know, she works consistent hours, but sometimes I have to ramp it up and sometimes I have to wheel it back. And, you know, it's, we have conversations now and we're like. Are we the same people?
Emily: Yeah. But it's like, I mean, spooky, that's what Chris and I are like the, the amount of times we've had someone ask us a question and I'm like, I'll be like the number 12.
Emily: And then Chris goes the number 12. It's like it happens soft. Like it's really nice when you find that kind of, that's right. Ity with someone and its, it is so important. And it does take time. It takes time to find
Amy: It does. And I was. Yes, I was flat out and busy and all the things Yep. But I was not gonna bring on and put the time into training a person who was not right for me.
Emily: Yeah,
Christine: yeah,
Jane: yeah. I think that, um, in a way what you're saying is, my understanding is that you, you know, hire or subcontract for a fit, for, you know, your office fit, your personality fit. That's right. Um, and. And you can teach someone anything. Yeah, hopefully. Absolutely.
Amy: It's the culture, right?
Jane: Yeah. It's, yeah, a cultural fit.
Amy: And culture is values.
Emily: Everything comes under culture.
Amy: Culture and values alignment are what? You can't teach those things. You can teach skills, um, and technical jargon. You can teach all of those things, but if you don't have the right alignment between a person's. You know, values mm-hmm. Personal values and your business values, then it's never gonna work.
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
Christine: No, no. Not at all. I remember back in my previous life as an event manager, and I'm in a, I was in a hotel based event center and we were looking for another coordinator, um, like myself and employed this girl, Paula, um, employed her. She'd never done it before. But the vibe, the everything. And I went to my manager and said she's it because I could teach her.
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But I can't create what she was, and we worked beautifully together for several years. Years.
Jane: Like magic.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had a So true. We've all had a culture like that, right? That's right. There was one job that I had, it was my first ever corporate job actually. And when I'd been there a couple of years, I moved into a different team.
Emily: Fuck. That team was just magic. Like my boss. I was her ea. We just had this beautiful blend of things like we just, we were all a little family. Like, we'd go and have lunch together and we had like, we'd still, it took a few years after the fact. She, she left us all so rude. Um, we all just moved.
Christine: Terrible.
Christine: What happens when you get offered like a million dollar salary? Fine. Um, but we all would catch up a lot after the fact. Like still, because we just got on so well and it was like, it's one of those things that it's. So devastating when you, when it has to end. Yeah. And it will eventually end, but it's so important when you do meet the right people.
Christine: And I know like with Juniper Road, when we've had con brought on contractors, it's been more important for us to actually be on the same wavelength and same vibe with them to know, yeah, you're my people. Like
Amy: a hundred percent
Emily: this will work because of my people.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. When I sit so. Caveat hate recruitment.
Amy: Yep. Right? Yep. I don't do recruitment in my business. It was the most freeing decision I ever made. Yes. Was to not do that. I found someone who's amazing to do it, but, you know, um, but when I do sit down on interviews and support clients, not necessarily running the recruitment process, but helping them make decisions.
Amy: That they bring me in for that vibe. Yes. That's what they have me there for.
Emily: You're a vibe check.
Amy: Yeah, vibe check to make sure that, you know, I'm the one coming from the outside who can feel what it's like when I walk in that workplace. Yeah. And they wanna make sure that the new person they're bringing in is the right feel and it's so great when you know straight away.
Amy: Yeah. Like I had two interviews just recently, a couple of months back, and I was just like. That love, that lady was lovely. She was a lovely person, but she is not the right person for this team. This guy, he is gonna kill it. Yep. Yeah. And he is the right, you know, right. Values alignment. Yeah. The reason he's looking for a new job is the perfect reason, you know, all of those kind of things.
Amy: So I think, yeah, more people need to put more time into deciding what their values are, what their culture is, what they wanna create. But they also need to realize that as a leader of the business, you are the one who needs to live that.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Absolutely. Yeah.
Amy: That's, if you're not leaving that culture and those values on a daily basis and showing them it'll fall through, it'll, it won't, it won't create that culture.
Amy: Yeah. You know?
Emily: Exactly right. I had an interview once and um, I like interviewed the CEO of this small business and then I guess. He had his vibe checker and she was one of like, she'd been there one of the longest of the company and she was lovely. We had a two hour conversation and it wasn't an interview.
Emily: We were, I was, by the end of it, I was like, I think I'm in love with you. And she was like, I feel this. Same. I was like, that's so good. I hung up and I was like, I even got the job. And we, you know, we've since stopped working together, but she, like, I still love her. Like, I'm so excited Every time I get to see her, we still call each other all the time.
Emily: She lives in Adela and like, you're my people. Yeah. I'm like, you're me When I grow up. I love it. It, she's just,
Jane: I wanna be you.
Emily: It's funny how you can just meet people like that and have that, like those vibes are just off the charts like they're, yeah. It's so important to do it.
Jane: Yeah, absolutely.
Jane: Don't you think they're few and far between, though?
Christine: Oh God, yeah.
Amy: Yeah. Hundred percent.
Emily: Yeah. They, they're enough that they can fill your cup for a long time. That's right. So it's nice, but I, I do very much agree in the values and alignment, and it's something I think I see a lot of in the virtual world that we all live in mm-hmm. Is things that don't match.
Emily: You hear things right, and there are things that don't match what you see. Yeah. On the outside. And I think people are not great with working with staff either. And there's um, lots of people. I communication's a big one. Yeah. I notice like, I feel like me as a human being and being, I've learnt, I mean, people pleasing and all that stuff in the background, but I feel like I've learnt to become a lot more forward
Amy: Yep.
Emily: In how I am and trying to find that delicate balance of not. Being aggressive or argumentative or trying to be very neutrally forward, which is what I fucking love about you, Jane. I love how you just say it how it is, but you say it in such a way that I don't think anyone like
Jane: countless grace.
Emily: Yeah.
Emily: There's always something,
Amy: it always comes from a a, a good place, right? Yeah.
Jane: Yeah. Absolutely. Hopefully
Emily: it does, but your whole, everything about your personality is really good at that because it, like, it would, even if you were insulting us, I feel like I'd sit down and like two days later I'd be like.
Emily: Hang on a second. Was that insult? I'm pretty sure she just gave me everything. Like it would not happen. I know, I know. Obviously. No, but like you've got that, a wonderful ability to do that and I think that's just who you are as a human being. Like you're born like that. And I think, um, some, there are some people,
Jane: there's been a bit of work behind it,
Emily: I'm sure.
Emily: I'm sure. Like I used to have a uni lecturer who would keep harping on about how badly I want Chris to meet her. And, um, she, I'm trying to get her on our podcast. She's this beautiful Scottish woman. Yeah. And she's four foot, nothing like she's tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. Yeah. But my God, this woman could rip you a new asshole if you crossed her.
Jane: Oh my goodness.
Emily: She has this beautiful balance of being so warm and beautiful and embracing, but like my God could hold that authority.
Amy: Yeah.
Emily: And in a way that I've never quite seen again. Like it's one of those I feel like. That's just, you can't teach people that. Yeah, that is just who she is. Um, and it's one of those like lovely balances that I, everyone gravitated to her.
Emily: 'cause she also kept that really firm structure in place and you knew where your boundaries were and you knew not to toe the line and, and what would happen if you did. Um, and then also it's. It's like the, it's all relationship building, right? It's like love bobbing and narcissism. It all comes into employment.
Amy: Absolutely.
Emily: And running a business with people.
Amy: Absolutely. And I think, um, sometimes business owners don't realize how they need to have that balance between those two skills of being the person who's seen. And versus the person who's got the authority. Yes. So there needs to be like that really nice mix of that.
Amy: Yeah. Um, one of my clients, he came out of heavy industry and moved into a much softer space and I said to him, mate, you can't operate in the way you used to. It's not gonna work with these, these employees. I'm like, they need to see you. They need to be able to have conversations with you. They. Say you are the guy in the top office and that's not the culture you want.
Amy: Yes. You wanna be seen, you wanna be heard. I mean, sometimes I know it's not easy for men to lean into the feminine part, and, but they have to and have that conversa, have open conversations. He'd been through a really tough time and I said, have, have you told them that you don't wanna talk about it at work?
Amy: They all like, there's rumors going round and round. I'm like, put it out in the open. Yeah. Team meeting. Absolutely. Guys, I had a up, I've had a really hard time recently, but I'm moving past it. I'd really appreciate it if we didn't have that conversation at work. Yep. I'm here for you as your boss. But I don't wanna talk about my personal life.
Emily: But people also respect it because it's that, that authentic
Amy: authenticity.
Emily: Thank you. Thank you for that English Most welcome. Um, yeah, it's, you know, it's that, that people, especially men, are not great with because they do bottle it up a lot. But I think, like, I know if someone said that to me, I'd be like, I immediately respect that you've done that.
Emily: Yeah. I love that. I love that people can be honest and open. It's my biggest pet hate when you see someone who is quite literally a fucking cluster Fuck Yeah. Because they don't understand who they are or that's, but don't even seem to want to try. Yeah, that's, and they just wanna be everything and then get annoyed when they don't get respected.
Emily: And it's like, well.
Amy: That's right.
Emily: Why, why would we?
Amy: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've found that, um, I seem to gravitate towards men having clients who are husband and wife teams. Right. Okay. Yep. So nearly all my retainer clients are husband and wife led businesses.
Emily: And what I'm hearing is Amy actually, um, moonlight as a marriage counselor.
Amy: Ah, so just recently put out an article around how HR can save your marriage.
Emily: Absolutely.
Christine: Oh, wow.
Amy: Because, um. I just, I had an epiphany one day and I was just sitting there going, oh my goodness. Look at all the things that I get to do that has probably saved all of their marriages, because they no longer argue about the people stuff anymore.
Christine: Yeah.
Amy: Because they just go, oh, we'll just ask Amy.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Yeah.
Amy: We'll just ask Amy Buffer. We don't need to. Yeah. I'm the buffer. I'm the, um, the softer person between. The hard male, you know, dominant kind of personality versus the female let after them. Love everyone.
Emily: We love everyone.
Amy: We wanna look after everyone.
Amy: And so I'm, I found myself in this place between the wife who knows that we need to do HR better and the guy who's very profit focused. Yes. You know, we need more people. All that, you know, very masculine. And I've found myself in the middle. Wow. Um, which has been. Yeah, it's been great. I, I just see that there's so much benefit from having that support and that guidance and allowing them to do what they love because they wouldn't have.
Amy: Done this business thing if they didn't love what they were doing and the impact they were making, but helping them do it in a better way. Yes. That means they can switch off when they go home. Yeah. And they become husband and wife again, not business partners.
Christine: Yeah. So important.
Amy: Yeah. It's, it was such a, it was such a realization.
Amy: It was when I was onboarding my, my new HR va and I was like, oh, and this one's a husband and wife and Oh, this one's husband and wife too. And I was just like. Oh, how did I do this? How did I end up here with all of theses and wives?
Emily: I find that I, like, I worked with my husband for 18 months and like no.
Amy: Oh, I so couldn't help.
Emily: Never again my husband either. No, I don't know how they do it. Yeah, no, I love him. But no.
Christine: So you, you know, you've got a lot of husband and wife, um, led businesses and small businesses, and do you support people who are working in other people's businesses?
Amy: Yeah, I have done, uh, I find that. Uh, obviously there's the union system that does allow for that kind of thing, but absolutely. I've supported clients who have been hard done by, by their business. Yeah. Or by a local government who have very, you know, rigid policies and procedures and trying to help them to, you know. We the right path.
Christine: Yes.
Amy: You know, all of those kind of things. Yeah. It, it is a very small portion of my work. Yeah. Um, but I also work with the employees of my clients. Yes. So quite often they'll utilize their retainers to assist the employees. So if I've got team leaders and those kind of things that are trying to manage employees Yep.
Amy: I can support them as well. Yeah. Not just the business owner. Yeah.
Emily: Do you do any EAP or anything like that?
Amy: Um. N yes and no. I, I refer to EAP. Mm-hmm. Um, I found for small business that finding a really lovely local psychologist or counseling service has been a great way to support employees.
Christine: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Amy: Because. One, you're supporting local. Yes. 'cause we all wanna do that, right?
Emily: Absolutely.
Amy: And but it also, they get the local concept, the local, you know, feel all the things. It's important, the vibe, the yeah, the vibe. There's lots of big companies out there, but sometimes they can become a little bit impersonal.
Amy: And you're also paying a fee for something that's. That maybe they're not gonna utilize. Yeah. Um, and sometimes it's because the employees don't understand what they've got access to.
Emily: I also think there's a bit of fear that if they disclose anything that it can be, I know it's not like, it's obviously very confidential services.
Amy: There's huge confidentiality,
Emily: but I think there's fear that they will get disclosed back to the company.
Amy: That's right. It's certainly if there's like, been. Serious, you know? Yeah. Criminal offense allegations or breaches and all that stuff that it would be, um, let out and you sign a confidentiality agreement for that anyway.
Amy: Yeah. Um. Yeah. I think those EAPs are very underutilized and that small businesses, there should be something that's tailored for small business better. Yeah. Yeah. In that space,
Emily: we have an amazing one down our way. Yeah. Cool. One of our, um, lovely friends in contacts has an amazing EAP service in the hills.
Emily: She's great, isn't she Mary? Yeah, she certainly is Mary from, yeah, the growth collective. Lovely. She's wonderful.
Christine: Yeah, absolutely.
Emily: So if we ever hear of, not that we really do, but if we hear of things, she's our first person to go to.
Amy: Yeah, that's amazing. It's so good to have that resource.
Christine: Yeah. I've got a, uh, couple of girlfriends that I recently had lunch, um, with, and both of them very different industries.
Christine: One, uh, smaller tradie sort of operation, and she's. You know the office manager type person. Yep. And then the other one is the EA to like the CEO of a, not like a Woolworth size business, but a nice, really decent medium business. And both of them have found themselves in the HR space with no. Training.
Christine: Right. One of them in, it's terrible man. The smaller operation has had to performance manage team members because the owner of the business does not want to have anything to do with it, and then had to go through, you know, employing and, and everything. Another person.
Emily: There's gotta be legalities around that too, though.
Emily: Unfair dismissal and stuff.
Christine: Yeah. And the o the other one, I. You know, I really feel for her has found herself in a place of having to be the first point of call for sexual misconduct complaints. Um, having to deal with, um, yeah, directors in the board, directors agreements, and. And everything and, and finding that because they don't have a HR team.
Christine: You know, she can contact the lawyer. Yeah. Or she's chat gp. Pt. Oh, that's some of this stuff's she's, 'cause she's got, got no support and it's not her job. Right. No. And so I really worry
Jane: she has no qualifications.
Christine: Exactly. No, not, this is a special start.
Amy: And where is they gonna sit legally if she, she, she inadvertently does something incorrectly.
Christine: Well, well, that's right.
Jane: Like where, this is where Amy comes in, right?
Amy: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Emily: But it's also really reckless on that behalf of those businesses to be doing this because they are putting themselves at legal risk. Yeah.
Amy: I think they don't understand the invest that HR is an investment. No.
Amy: Right. You invest. Yes. So if you put a full-time HR resource into your business, something of a business that size, you're looking at 80, 90 k. Yep. Right. A year. Easy. Yep. Um, you could have someone like me on a retainer for like half that Yes, exactly right. Per year. And then you know that you're compliant, right?
Amy: Yeah. You know that you're following the rules. You do. We do full HR audits of the whole system to find any of the gaps. Yep. You know, and you've got an external resource. That is impartial to the business when things go wrong, when there are sexual assault claims, when they, there are bullying claims. Yes.
Amy: All of those kind of things. And you know, there's changes in the legislation. It's not just physical bullying anymore, it's mental bullying. So psychosocial safety is a huge change. I've just been,
Emily: what word?
Amy: Just been to a co, been to a whole conference on that and Wow. Was that not eye-opening?
Christine: Yeah, I bet.
Amy: Um. The stories, the, yeah. Just crazy. Just absolutely crazy what's going on in there. And the system's broken. It's not working for anybody, uh, in that space because people are unaware of their responsibilities. Yeah. So, and it comes back again to the culture and values because as soon as. Any of that stuff comes out of the hands of the individual.
Amy: We don't know who's gonna be dealing with the claim. No. Are they qualified? Have they been trained? Ha Do they even know what a good p best practice process is? Mm. Um, it's really, it's really messy. Yeah. It's just so messy. And I feel sorry for the employee. Yeah. Oh, that's where my heart goes. Yeah. Is that.
Amy: You are not trained to do this. And I tell my clients this. I'm like, you are not trained to do this stuff. Like you are not meant to know it. No. I'm here to teach you about it. Yeah. So that you've got some awareness, but you are you, I did three years at university to learn how to do stuff and then another 10 or 15 years in that experience in the actual industry Exactly.
Amy: To learn the things that I learned and I'm still learning all the time. But how, yeah, I just, I feel so, so much for those guys.
Jane: So what would you advice be to someone like that?
Amy: Yeah. My advice would be to, I think there's a point where you need to step up and say, Hey, this is above my pay grade. Yes, yes.
Amy: And then when that, by like a lot. And when that doesn't work there, there has to be a line in the sand, right where you say that. If you, I'm not making this legal decision with the, the risk that's associated with that. Yep. Your CEOs, those guys, they've got professional, um, responsibilities. Yeah, yeah.
Amy: Associated to that. Um, and you can have. You can lessen those responsibilities by having a HR person on board, you can actually lessen your, in your insurance policy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. By ticking the box that says you've got a HR person on retainer.
Emily: To be honest, I'm even surprised that the lawyers would've let that happen.
Emily: Like if they're consulting a lawyer, at least a lawyer.
Amy: And the issue is that the difference between a lawyer and an HR person, right. The lawyer, they are specialists in the employment law. Yep. They're not necessarily. Uh, specialists in the awards. Yes. Mm-hmm. And the interpretation of those and the implementation of those in real life.
Amy: Because these awards are not made for small to medium business. They're made for big business. Yep. Mm-hmm. So how can we make these work for them and. The lawyers. I don't know how to do that. Nope. That's why that's the, you know, major differentiation between us. They're, they're dealing with paperwork, we are dealing with people.
Amy: Yes. And how it really works in life. Yeah. That's such a big difference.
Jane: So your advice would be to. Contact Amy. Yes. At Grounded hrs.
Christine: That's what, that's exactly right. And, and how would My friends can find you, Amy.
Amy: You will, you will find us@groundedhr.com au. You can, um, have a no obligation free conversation with me about what we offer, what, how we can help out, and also whether we're the right fit.
Amy: Yeah. Um, I. I hate being able to, having to sign up to things when you can't qualify whether it's the right service for you. Yes. Yeah. So it's so important for me as a business owner to also make sure that the business I'm working for, I'm confident that I can help them. Yeah. Yeah. Um. So yes, you can contact us there.
Amy: We also share heaps of amazing stuff in, uh, on our socials, which is grounded hr.love socials au. Yep. And um, we also do regular free webinars, so, um, we've got one coming up, I dunno when this podcast is coming out, but we have a new one coming up in May. Uh. It's winning hearts, so how to get all your employees on board.
Amy: Okay. But we run that, we run that and a, a couple of other webinars every second month. So, fantastic. If you just wanna turn up and learn something new about how to manage your employees better and in a more human way, then yeah. I'd love for you to join us.
Emily: Can join people, listen to the webinars after the fact.
Amy: Yes, absolutely. If you sign up to, um, sign register for any of our webinars, we share the link to that afterwards. Great. Great. Yeah.
Emily: And tell us about HR Link.
Amy: HR Link is my brand new service. I'm so excited for this. I have been dwelling on this service for about two years. I saw a huge gap in the market.
Amy: There are heaps of HR consulting companies out there that I made for bigger business. Very impersonal, very not tailored. Yeah. Yep. And what I wanted to offer was something that was tailored. To every small business. So the HR link is a membership which has a 12 month sign up. It offers you a consult with me.
Amy: Once a month, you get to access to our community, which gi, which you can ask a thousand questions whenever they come up. You can access it on your phone. So whenever an issue happens, you can ask the question there and then, and it's a community where you're gonna learn from one another because. Your questions can be seen by all the other members.
Amy: Yep. And I love that collaborative approach. That's, it's one of my key business values is to share that through collaboration and community. So, um, and then there's access to our document, email scripts and our library, which is ever growing. We are building webinars in there. Um, so there's training portal as well.
Amy: So it's an amazing, amazing service. And just $350 a month.
Emily: Yeah. Awesome.
Amy: Yep. So less than 90 bucks a week.
Christine: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah. That's awesome. So brilliant.
Amy: It's, um, it's going to grow. It's growing into just such a valuable service for smaller businesses who. Wanna do it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly right.
Emily: Yeah. And if you, if, if you were like a sole trader or a single person or, you know, contracting to someone else who you might be having some issues with, uh, can they reach out and ask for some advice?
Amy: A hundred percent, yeah. So we have, we have, um, consults that you can book in for, um, and have conversations we can provide you with documentations or letters or anything like that to support you through the process.
Emily: Love it. Amy has helped me with her very shitty situation I had few years ago. Um, and was like thankfully telling me that what I was thinking was correct, which is always nice.
Emily: And
Amy: I loved giving you the hug after the fact. Once it was all dusted,
Emily: it's freedom. But again, it was, you know, I was in a scenario where there was a small business of about 15 ish people and not a single way to, there was no hr. Yeah, there was no way for me in a really horrendous. Spot to talk to anyone and get any help.
Amy: That's right.
Jane: No, that's exactly right. I remember having, um, a bit of a problem at a place where I worked. Um, and unfortunately it was the HR department, so, oh no, I've been in the same place. So one of the reasons why I started my business was because of a shitty experience that I had. I was micromanaged, I.
Jane: They would look at every single thing I typed into my internet browser.
Emily: Oh, that's not okay. Yeah. I've had that too though.
Amy: It was all of those things. It was before the legislation changed, so all that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. I lasted seven months. I was diagnosed with, um, situational depression. Mm-hmm. While I was there, put on medication, all kinds of things.
Amy: And when I went to. Obviously my boss was the HR manager. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I went to her boss and he just swiped me to the side. I went to the CI went to the ceo EO. Yeah. He just, you know, he's like, oh, well you've resigned already now. I was like, yeah, okay, mate. No worries at all. No investigation, nothing, and everyone could.
Amy: See, all the other employees could see what was going on. Yep, yep, yep. But no one did need that.
Emily: I was like, the one where I was saying I got was pregnant in my performance review and things, and they, my boss that canceled five minutes before my big boss that canceled five minutes before decided it was easier to manage me than deal with my boss who was the problem.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Emily: Because she knew I was leaving on mat leave. Yeah. Like I sat in about three or four different meetings, hysterical with how badly he was treating me, and she didn't give a fuck. Yeah. And I was just like, fuck a lot of you. Yeah. I was so ready.
Amy: And do you know, it's people's avoidance of being uncomfortable, right?
Amy: Yeah. People don't wanna have difficult conversations. Yep. And I had a client, we had, we'd booked this really spicy conversation with an employee and she's like, are you all right? Your chest is really, really red. Mm-hmm. And I'm like. Mate, I'm human too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think I walk into all of these conversations and I don't get nervous as well?
Amy: Yeah. I hate difficult conversation as well, but I walk in there with the best of everybody in in mind, you know in mind. And that, that we are gonna try and work together to get to an outcome. Yeah. Um, it doesn't matter, you know, and I walk away at the end of the week. Exhausted most of the time because everything I'm dealing with is from an emotional base.
Amy: Yeah, yeah. Um, I'm an empath. I absorb everything from around me, which is hard. Everyone says, how do you just work four days a week? I'm like, mate, I'm no used to nobody by Friday to survive.
Emily: To survive,
Amy: to survive. I work four days a week. I'd rather work four longer days than work five days a week and be able to reset.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Amy: On a Friday. Yeah. So, you know, and I preach, I, I do what I preach. I take time off. I've just had, you know, more than a week. Leave away from the business where I literally didn't log in at all. And so I, I want every business owner to do the same thing. It's important you be very example. Yeah, absolutely.
Emily: It's great. No, it's a good work rhythm to have. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Our lives are more than work. It's the sanity we need. Yep, that's exactly right. There's so many things we could digest here, so I feel like there'll be more parts to this as well as well.
Christine: Absolutely. So answer. Amy, here we go. What is your bucket list destination?
Amy: It's an easy one. Canada and Alaska.
Christine: Oh, that's on my list.
Amy: I wanna go on the train and look to the sky and um. Yeah, do all the things. Oh yeah. You know the snow, even though,
Jane: what about go skiing?
Emily: Yeah, skiing would be behind my list.
Jane: That would be amazing.
Amy: I'm really good. I'm really good at sitting in the coffee shop and looking at the snow.
Amy: Oh, trade ski. Yeah, I'm an skier.
Emily: Um, I need, I need headphones in and get me down those slopes. I might die 'cause I'm so unfit. But I'll get there. I'll get there. As long as I don't bring my husband. Last time I took him to ski, you broke his buddy arm so I don't take him and then I'll go, I was injured.
Emily: That's Jane. You and I could go.
Jane: Absolutely.
Amy: That's how I ended up in the coffee shop was I got injured last time we went, but that's what we did for our honeymoon, actually went to New Zealand. Oh. And uh, skiing and all those fun things. But yes, Canada and Las Guy is on my bucket list. It's pretty much, I'm not, uh, a huge traveler outside of Australia.
Amy: So people who have been around me or known me for a while know that I packed up. My family and we traveled Australia for four years in a caravan.
Emily: That's awesome.
Amy: So we have seen most of Australia. Um, but my husband and I made the decision that we were gonna do lots of overseas travel once the kids were older.
Amy: Yeah. So we're almost there. Almost 15 and 13. We're getting closer.
Emily: Closer and closer.
Amy: Yeah.
Christine: It disappeared very, very quickly.
Amy: I know, right? Yes. Yeah.
Emily: Well that's so exciting. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Amy: Thanks so much for having me.
Emily: Yes. There will be more where this comes from. Yes. I think.
Christine: And Jane, thank you very much.
Emily: Yes, Jane,
Jane: you're welcome.
Christine: Guest host today.
Jane: That was so interesting. I, I honestly didn't know how. You know, HR really does affect every single thing that we do.
Emily: Yeah, it does.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I love it.
Emily: Fun fact. I actually, it was either marketing, hr, for me, they were my choices and so I, I have a love for it and I have a real, like, I couldn't even control myself when Chris is telling this stories.
Emily: 'cause I'm like, fuck it, ble.
Amy: This is why we get along so well. Yeah.
Emily: Yeah. I love it. I find it so interesting and I think there's so much. People don't understand the complexity behind it.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Emily: And how, how important. It's no matter what you do, that's why I'm really keen to get more of this out there.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely.
Emily: To make sure people can understand. Because even as small businesses as us, like it comes down to contracts, it comes down to how do you run your culture internally.
Jane: Mm-hmm.
Emily: Even if you're working with other people, it's like, how do you, it's how do you navigate bad clients? It's the same processes in place
Amy: Absolutely.
Emily: For all of that stuff. So it's really, I love it. I could, I could go on all day. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank we love having you Stay tuned. Yes. Sorry. Bye bye.
